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Hi Fritz, I have played necrons since they were released in plastic and I have a 8-0 record with them in 5th edition so I understand how they work in and out of competition.
I love your videos and Saim Han tactics but I don't think your necron tactics are up to snuff. I don't want to be overly harsh but the advice you are giving for necron lords with nightmare shroud is just plain bad.
1. Every turn you Turbo boost you cannot pass through or end your turn in cover. Also you cannot shoot. No shooting = no Nightmare Shroud. That means you are sitting there in open terrain for a whole turn with a 2+ cover save. Note that it is a cover save and not a invulnerable save.
2. Nightmare shroud is useless against vehicles. With the current reliance on Mechanized forces, few players with any skill are going to sit on an objective with non fearless or non mechanized troops. Making a 35 point rhino more effective than your 260pt unit.
3. Nightmare shroud only works 27.7% of the time at leadership 8 and only 16.6% at leadership 9. That is terrible odds when gambling with a single 200pt HQ.
Hi Fritz, I have played necrons since they were released in plastic and I have a 8-0 record with them in 5th edition so I understand how they work in and out of competition.
I love your videos and Saim Han tactics but I don't think your necron tactics are up to snuff. I don't want to be overly harsh but the advice you are giving for necron lords with nightmare shroud is just plain bad.
1. Every turn you Turbo boost you cannot pass through or end your turn in cover. Also you cannot shoot. No shooting = no Nightmare Shroud. That means you are sitting there in open terrain for a whole turn with a 2+ cover save. Note that it is a cover save and not a invulnerable save.
2. Nightmare shroud is useless against vehicles. With the current reliance on Mechanized forces, few players with any skill are going to sit on an objective with non fearless or non mechanized troops. Making a 35 point rhino more effective than your 260pt unit.
3. Nightmare shroud only works 27.7% of the time at leadership 8 and only 16.6% at leadership 9. That is terrible odds when gambling with a single 200pt HQ.
4. Nightmare shroud requires you to be within 12" for any effect. Most decent CC troops have a 13"-18" threat radius. Including anything that is Fleet, or has a jetpack, or another bike. That means if the shroud doesn't work (only a 16.6% chance against MEQ) you are going to get charged and mauled.
5. Scarabs are vulnerable to templates, blast and barrage which negate cover saves on top, making them doubly dangerous! That means flamer's, grenade launchers, and especially cannons are going to SHRED that unit placed together in a clump like you suggest. The main reason scarabs live so long normally is that nobody bothers to shoot at them when there are so many more targets. Now with a lord attached, they are going to get hammered.
Take a quick look at an average hit from a space marine flamer. Say it hits 5 out of the six models in the unit.A Str 4 flamer is going to hit your T3 on a 3+ so lets say you get 3 wounds. Your cover save is negated so you are back to 5+ save. The flamer is AP5 so what do you do. try to save one with the lord and two on scarab bases. Those two on the scarabs automatically count as 4 wounds taking out one base and putting a wound on another and hopefully you make the save on the lord.
A battlecannon, siege cannon, earthshaker, Vanquisher and demolisher shot is going to instant death every scarab swarm that takes a wound on 2+, and a couple will instant death the lord too. Even if he comes back with the phylactery you now have a lord all alone in the open waiting to die.
If you are somehow getting this tactic to work I applaud you. I also think that you must be doing something else to set up this trick OR the people you are using this on are not very experienced or playing competitive lists. I have come accross many players that have never played against Crons before and I can run roughshod over them using any tactic because they don't know what to expect. Against an experienced player I doubt you would get off a sigle shroud.
Here is a fun little unit for you to try. 4-10 flayed ones with a lord w/ gaze of flame and whatever else you want. Followed directly behind by 4 Pariahs. Any unit attempting to charge the lord gets no bonus charge attack AND has a maximum leadership of 6. Plus they must pass a leadership test or only hit on rolls of 6. Then counter charge with the Pariahs in your turn if there is anything left.
Reply Out:
Brad, thanks for emailing. I hear what you are saying with the shroud and it seems like it shouldn’t work in the world or mech and fearless troops but it does- with a little planning and finesse. Here is what I’m doing with it running down your points:
RE Turbo boost. True I can’t use it but it is rare something is in range first turn anyway, and usually I want to get into the back ranks which is going to take a turn. The rare time something is put out in range or maybe bikes ready to move forward I’ll do this. Lord and scarabs get deployed together as a unit as SOP. If I see a shroud opportunity first turn then I’ll use the Deceiver’s grand illusion to separate the lord a bit over so he is not part of the scarabs. My turn has the scarabs turbo boosting out and the lord moving out separate but ending his movement next to the scarabs. I pop off the shroud and then he auto joins the scarabs being an independent character and I get cover saves on the unit from turbo boosting, but not on the lord- but he has the scarab body guard for wounds.
RE Mech Spam. Again 5th is mech…for now…just wait till the wave of Tyranids really hit, but that is a though for another time. By the time my lord hits, and I may have to delay it a turn, guys are out on foot due to my destroyers. The destroyers are the can openers popping rhinos along with the monolith particle whip. Also, with internet “wisdom” saying the Deceiver and monolith suck cats just ignore them. I’m always getting the lord and Deceiver in the back assaulting vehicles- I use warrior and destroyer blocks as bait to shoot at to give my opponent incentive to sit there, say with their chimera’s and fire everything into my units for phase out- then the lord and C’Tan hit with living metal/warscythe.
RE Mathhammer. Is that the odds? I always get a unit or two to run each game, and vs. Tau and Eldar it is murder. The tricknology edge of it is sometimes better then the unit itself- people don’t like you forcing them to take LD tests on multiple units each turn. Objective placement also helps with this- placing them in a cluster and letting your opponent have them- they pile on, you get them out on foot if they are not, and then when you shroud you are hitting 3-4 units a turn. Somebody is going to fail. I do something similar with my cullex assassin in my GK build.
5. Scarabs are vulnerable to templates, blast and barrage which negate cover saves on top, making them doubly dangerous! That means flamer's, grenade launchers, and especially cannons are going to SHRED that unit placed together in a clump like you suggest. The main reason scarabs live so long normally is that nobody bothers to shoot at them when there are so many more targets. Now with a lord attached, they are going to get hammered.
Take a quick look at an average hit from a space marine flamer. Say it hits 5 out of the six models in the unit.A Str 4 flamer is going to hit your T3 on a 3+ so lets say you get 3 wounds. Your cover save is negated so you are back to 5+ save. The flamer is AP5 so what do you do. try to save one with the lord and two on scarab bases. Those two on the scarabs automatically count as 4 wounds taking out one base and putting a wound on another and hopefully you make the save on the lord.
A battlecannon, siege cannon, earthshaker, Vanquisher and demolisher shot is going to instant death every scarab swarm that takes a wound on 2+, and a couple will instant death the lord too. Even if he comes back with the phylactery you now have a lord all alone in the open waiting to die.
If you are somehow getting this tactic to work I applaud you. I also think that you must be doing something else to set up this trick OR the people you are using this on are not very experienced or playing competitive lists. I have come accross many players that have never played against Crons before and I can run roughshod over them using any tactic because they don't know what to expect. Against an experienced player I doubt you would get off a sigle shroud.
Here is a fun little unit for you to try. 4-10 flayed ones with a lord w/ gaze of flame and whatever else you want. Followed directly behind by 4 Pariahs. Any unit attempting to charge the lord gets no bonus charge attack AND has a maximum leadership of 6. Plus they must pass a leadership test or only hit on rolls of 6. Then counter charge with the Pariahs in your turn if there is anything left.
Reply Out:
Brad, thanks for emailing. I hear what you are saying with the shroud and it seems like it shouldn’t work in the world or mech and fearless troops but it does- with a little planning and finesse. Here is what I’m doing with it running down your points:
RE Turbo boost. True I can’t use it but it is rare something is in range first turn anyway, and usually I want to get into the back ranks which is going to take a turn. The rare time something is put out in range or maybe bikes ready to move forward I’ll do this. Lord and scarabs get deployed together as a unit as SOP. If I see a shroud opportunity first turn then I’ll use the Deceiver’s grand illusion to separate the lord a bit over so he is not part of the scarabs. My turn has the scarabs turbo boosting out and the lord moving out separate but ending his movement next to the scarabs. I pop off the shroud and then he auto joins the scarabs being an independent character and I get cover saves on the unit from turbo boosting, but not on the lord- but he has the scarab body guard for wounds.
RE Mech Spam. Again 5th is mech…for now…just wait till the wave of Tyranids really hit, but that is a though for another time. By the time my lord hits, and I may have to delay it a turn, guys are out on foot due to my destroyers. The destroyers are the can openers popping rhinos along with the monolith particle whip. Also, with internet “wisdom” saying the Deceiver and monolith suck cats just ignore them. I’m always getting the lord and Deceiver in the back assaulting vehicles- I use warrior and destroyer blocks as bait to shoot at to give my opponent incentive to sit there, say with their chimera’s and fire everything into my units for phase out- then the lord and C’Tan hit with living metal/warscythe.
RE Mathhammer. Is that the odds? I always get a unit or two to run each game, and vs. Tau and Eldar it is murder. The tricknology edge of it is sometimes better then the unit itself- people don’t like you forcing them to take LD tests on multiple units each turn. Objective placement also helps with this- placing them in a cluster and letting your opponent have them- they pile on, you get them out on foot if they are not, and then when you shroud you are hitting 3-4 units a turn. Somebody is going to fail. I do something similar with my cullex assassin in my GK build.
RE Assault. Now this is the real weakness. I have to get within 12” and if I get assaulted I’m done- even with the warscythe and T6. Worse is if I get hit with a power weapon which everybody has like candy these days, no WBB for me. If my opponent is protecting a clustered area and I still want to go with it, I’ll move out turbo boosting and then turn two make a half ring around my lord with the scarabs- I can get a pretty big ring with 2” unit coherency, and then keep the lord back so he is not part of the unit. This way I can pop off the shroud and hopefully the only thing they can assault is the scarab wall, of course they can shoot it with another unit, etc. That said, over all I find most assaulters heading as fast as they can to my core of warriors clustered in the back for the easy phase out.
RE Swarms. Yes, they are vulnerable to templates, and S6 shots- I hate playing vs. Eldar! Nothing I can do against this, but again, those big IG cannon shots often go against my warriors and destroyers for phase out. Why bother with five lonely scarabs.
RE N00bz. I’ve played both Necron ignorant players so to speak, and cats that fancy themselves “elite” tournament players and I always get shroud off- except when I face chaos cult legion marines like a particular world eater army I’m thinking about. But then I’ve only lost 30 points of wargear- I still have a mobile unit that can soak up fire, contest, hack vehicles, or act as a one turn speed bump. I always make sure my opponent’s know that I have nightmare shroud and what it does along with the rest of my wargear, monolith portal, etc. Veteran players fall for it the most since they not only dismiss Necrons, but they dismiss mass leadership tests as a valid tactic.
I like the idea with the flayed ones, and I’m especially interested in working pariahs into the list. What do you think the smallest best number is? 4? 5?
-Fritz
